From: polaris@wam.umd.edu (John M Cho) Subject: Philosophical Guide To the DD Date: 1996/08/27 Message-ID: <4vtjtv$5a1@dailyplanet.wam.umd.edu> organization: University of Maryland, College Park, MD newsgroups: rec.games.netrek Subject: Philosophical Guide To the DD Newsgroups: rec.games.netrek Summary: Keywords: Oh well, here we go again... Have to put up my bi-annual post on the DD... This has been slightly updated. :) I wish to post this philosophical view of the DD on this newsgroup in hopes of promoting the DD as a valuable ship. I do believe many INL teams still look at the DD with some suspicions on its ability to compete effectively in a team-effort. I am thoroughly convinced that yes it can fill a niche and be an asset to a team (not necessarily all teams). Q: So why are you really posting this? A: Being a pilot who prefers the DD, I am interested in seeing a new batch of deadly, cunning, and talented DD pilots in Netrek. Q: So what makes you an authority on the subject? A: Well, I do not profess to be the best DD player there is (by any stretch of the imagination), but having played alot in DDs, I know what a good DD pilot does. Aside from that, perhaps my insights may provide other potentially promising DDs to raise their game up a notch... Maybe. Here goes... I've read Hill's playing-dd.Z file as well as the playing-dd-alt.Z. In addition, I've also read strategy.Z, teamwork.Z, hints.Z, ship-opinions.Z, etc...etc... And I must say, I'm really glad I had the opportunity to read them. I really appreciate the insight. Yet, as much as I agree with alot of what has been said, I believe that DDs can be played many different ways, with the style varying due to a player's preference... I wish to explain my observations and what I see in the DD as a warship. I certainly welcome any SERIOUS discussion on the matter. I understand alot of vets out there who use to play the DD are now violently against their use over the CA. Maybe I'm just a fool...but I am convinced the DD stands as a ship that is unique and deadly when used correctly. ***You Want Me To Fly A Destroyer?*** I think its important to realize that not everyone is going to play the DD... Why? Because not everyone likes to play the type of game a DD pilot must play... Thats what makes Netrek so cool; the ship variations provide for numerous styles and strategies. Someone who is into heavy firepower, strong shields, and strong tractor/pressors is more likely to seek out a BB rather than the DD. My concern is that those who do NOT play the DD may unjustly "rag" on the ship, simply on the basis that its not the ship they'd be caught in. And, even more destructive, dogmatically tell others that (obviously because they "know" the game), the DD is not for them either. On the other hand, I believe the DD is not the ship for every situation. During LPS, the BB is definitely the clear choice. In bombing and taking, the AS is by far the most obvious choice. Then again, I doubt you know alot of AS oggers... Yes, the game, with its ever changing situations, does require the use of different ships at different times for optimum results. But lets just suppose... ...you got trapped in a DD... How can a DD best handle the different situations its suited and not suited for? ***Pilot Qualifications*** You know, its the pilot that makes a ship feared... And in my opinion, the DD is one of the most difficult ships to "drive". So what sort of pilot should be flying a DD? 1) How about a patient one for starters? One who is not so jumpy. When I say patient, I am referring to the not-so-trigger-happy type. The ones who do not go into a berserker rage and charge the enemy line with phasers and torps flying wildly about. The reason for this is simply put in one word: FUEL. DDs easily run out of fuel if you get into Rambo mode.... They just aren't designed to unload indefinitely. In addition to that, their weaponry is fairly weak... And only a focused burst of phasers and torpedos are going to give results. 2) One who watches the Galactic...alot. Now I know this is a requirement for clue in general. But I think DDs need to watch the galactic more than the average clued player. Why? A DD putting around the galaxy without any sort of mission or idea of what is going on is useless. A DD can't just charge into an area and do whatever it wants. Most players in larger ships that have played for a while really look at the DD as an EZ kill. But, a DD that is keyed on situations occurring around him can be their at the right time to do the right thing....with (I might add) deadly results. 3) Someone who has excellent hand/eye coordination. A SC can turbo out of a bad situation, a CA can fight his way out, an AS can take the damage and crawl out, and the BB can fight his way out AND take damage. A DD knows it can't do any of these things (that well)...except maybe sneaking out. But sneaking around (cloaking) will not solve all of your problems if you have 3 ships after you. Thus, the ability to dodge streams of torps and fit through the little gaps is imperative. The hull is not strong enough to det for any length of time...dodging is the way to go when torps are raining. 4) Someone who is not afraid to die. DDs have traditionally been told to "FLEE" or run when in tight situations. Though a good DD pilot knows how to do this well, he also knows when to NOT run and face the possibility of death for the betterment of the team.... That may mean anything from detting, to ogging, to tractoring an ogger. ***Skills Worth Having*** Vectorsense. DDs like any other ship on the game is subject to the basic laws of vectors. I think it is IMPERATIVE that the DD pilot obtain a good sense of vectors in this game... Yeah, when you are flying parallel at the same speed with the enemy, you don't move the site on his icon and fire... You know your torps are going to miss... But moving your site ahead of the CA (depending on how fast both of you are going) will allow for your torps to hit on the dot. Vectorsense is a learned trait that only comes after alot of practice... It also serves well in dogfights... With superior maneuverability compared to the larger ships, vectorsense allows you to "lead" a ship into your torps. This trait allows for you to be precise and conserves fuel... Why? Because, every torp you shoot is fuel thrown at the enemy... With this skill mastered you can try other variations like charging past a ship rather than having to lock on him directly. With alot of cocky SC, CA, and BB players out there...superior vectorsense can really put them in their place. Rangesense. The DD is just not the ideal ship for closed in fighting. If you like closed in fighting, you should reconsider using a DD. A good DD knows when he is too close to a ship, especially in terms of tractors and phasers. By keeping your range just at the end of their phaser range, your DD stands a very good chance of survival. Usually a DD closes in on the kill when it knows the other ship is damaged and out of fuel or knows how to weave through streams of torps. Do not venture to close, or you will realize why so many label the DD as "D'Crunchy" (as Wreck so affectionately coined the term). 6thsense. Know thy enemy... It is so important to know how the enemy thinks. For instance experience tells me that a CA who is keeping me preoccupied in a dogfight is doing just that...keeping me preoccupied. But why? Questions should be coming into your mind. Is he clueless? Is he holding me back while a planet is being taken? Am I about to be ogged by a second ship? Another situation is when you are maybe pinning down an enemy carrier...say chasing him into 3rd space. Enough experience in this matter will allow you to guess if he is going to cut or evade or speed for a fuel planet. Is the enemy CA you are targetting for a good ogging, traveling at warp 2, faking it? Is that other DD really out of fuel or trying to draw you close? These are questions that you should address constantly. These intangibles are extremely valuable to the DD. Again, its important to realize that the DD rides a fine line between being a liability to a team OR an asset. Engaging with a CA with no real purpose or motive at hand is a liability to the team, ESPECIALLY in a DD. Commonsense. Overextension beyond your limitations will always be detrimental. If you enter a combat area where you are a DD and there are two enemy CAs on your tactical, you know your chance of surviving is slim if you engage. Learn to run. Learn to watch your fuel. Unless the target is worth it, if you are badly damaged and out of fuel, don't try to finish the enemy BB off... Learn to go heal your wounds to fight another day. Take into account what is in your general region? Are you behind enemy lines? Where is the nearest place I can repair or refuel or both? Can I expect help from my team-mates? How much fuel do I have left... Don't let the enemy taunt you... Hey if they died because they got butt-torped by you...they obviously did not have as much commonsense as you did. The basic gist is to know your limitations. In a DD, this is very critical because of its lack of strengths with respect to other ships in specific roles. ***Solutions To Conflicts*** Ogging. DDs are effective oggers. They have good speed, great Etemp, and do not consume as much fuel as the other ships (save the AS) when cloaked. Some things need to be noted. A DD will not be able to kill an AS or a BB simply by exploding on it... A DD must be able to dish out a good salvo of torps and get two good closed in phaser shots to successfully ogg an AS or a BB (and you generally still have to explode on them). CAs and SCs can be ogged without having to mutual with them...but that is easier said than done... 1) I'm-(not really)-leaving-Oggs. Nothing like passing by your target ship, pretending to be clueless, or lagged, or just unaware... Slipping off their tactical. Cloaking and locking on them...and ogging them... You'd be surprised how many players just totally write you off when you seem to passively drift off their tactical. NOTE: Though all clued players will one time or another fall for this, generally clued players keep an eye on their galactic... Not to mention, they will take notice when the Red Alert flag appears on their screen. Be cautious, use commonsense... If they are speeding up and you are directly behind them, get ready to be butt-torped. 2) You're-Too-Busy-To-Notice-Me-Oggs. When you can see a carrier preoccupied with running from/dogfighting with another of your team, thats a great time to cloak and ogg. Nothing like a nice blindside blast. 3) I'm-(not really)-not-going-to-engage-Oggs. This is really a very advanced form of ogging. But to be able to cloak while the enemy watches you...speed past him or position yourself coming from another direction and then uncloaking can really take him by surprise. I've watched DDs cloak as they were headed toward me on my tactical... And then 2-3 seconds later appear from a diagonal direction unleashing bloody hell. 4) All-out-standard-Oggs. To key in on a carrier or target ship from your galactic and then to cloak and at full speed approach him. At the point you reach him tactically, you have two options... You can lock onto him and then at full speed uncloak and unload... Or you can uncloak near him and speed past him unloading... Of course the latter option allows you to live, whereas the former generally results in mutualing. The problem with the latter is that it is easier for them to evade your shots. The former's problem is a matter of the enemy butt-torping you into oblivion (hence the term stupid ogging) Planet-taking. DDs are great for planet taking...but only on certain situations. DDs, with an effective escort, can and will take planets quickly and more efficiently than an AS when on the offensive. I see only one major rule in planet taking... WATCH THE GALACTIC. If you see the enemy or a ?? converging on your ship do not try to take so quickly... Nothing wrong with flying over the planet and circling around it to allow the enemy to empty their fuel tanks before you drop... In addition, your escorts need to be given a chance to either get in position to det or to eliminate the enemy. Be watchful for opportunities to drop... Your escorts can't guarantee a totally safe drop... When dealing with one or two enemy craft, try to dodge their streams of 8 torps...and drop right after you clear them... The enemy will not be able to fire another set until the torps disappear or they det them themselves... Don't hesitate to have a second planet to take in case your initial one is too hairy... The DD makes some pretty sweet sharp turns at warp 5...and can accelerate at a reasonable rate to totally lose the enemy ships... Escorting. If you ever get caught having to escort in a DD...know this...you stand little chance of survival if the target you are escorting is being heavily ogged... Suggestion...DET and fire back. A great way to prevent the oggers from coming in (especially if they are coming in from one direction) is to fire torps at them and charge them while holding the det key... As they try to shoot torps past you...you just suck um in. Oh yeah, you will die. But believe me, your carrier will have enough time to put down 2-3 armies. By the way, this tactic should be done when they are firing streams of torps at tactical range.... If the torps are in a spread formation...detting will buy more time for your carrier. Another tactic if you happen to be good at quick aiming is to fire a string of 2-3 torps at 2-3 enemy ships approaching at the same time... I've watched a CA and a SC both dodge these torps, giving my carrier some extra seconds. This only works on some players... I for one would plow through the torps with my det key pressed...but I notice quite a few players will dodge 1-2 torps... A major concern here is that if you are a designated escort for the team....do not fly the DD. Escorting in a DD should only happen on an emergency/extreme/clutch-play case... It is the exception to escort in a DD...definitely not the rule. Dogfighting. You can fight in a DD certainly...but the DD is simply not designed to fight in a dogfight against larger ships. Like escorting, dogfighting in a DD should be the exception....not the rule. Rule number one: Choose your fights unless you have no other choice. DDs, with their maneuverability, make them decent dogfighters against most low clue players. Fighting against mid-level to high clue in a DD is just asking to be killed. Should a dogfight occur, the pilot of the DD must be patient... If a ship tries to close in on your from the back, I had previously mentioned (a long time ago) to make a sharp turn and pressor them... Another way to take them by surprise is to slow down to warp 4 or 5...and tractor him... Your DD will immediately make a sharp turn and come around to his behind and you can just unload.... Another great tactic when I know I am gonna die is to det his final spread of torps when another enemy is close by. I've killed more enemy BBs this way than any other method... Of course the BB has to be somewhat injured...and NOT the ship that shot the torps. :) If you plan to charge an injured ship with a full tank of gas...give him some room and then charge him at warp 7... Decelerate to warp 5 and begin cutting across the grain and dodge his torps. I can usually shoot 4-5 torps into a ship before dodging and not take damage... At warp 5, you can dodge most streams. If a torp spread is beyond avoiding, try to get hit by one...or run away from the torps long enough for the holes in between two torps is big enough for a DD to fit through. Alot of CAs and BBs like to close in on a DD and speed up past him while phasoring and torping the DD... A DD can counter this move by moving in a diagonal direction away from the CA or BB and using vectorsense to "lead" the ship to its death... I have the accel rate of the CA and BB down pretty good so that I can generally plant 5 out of 8 torps into them. Clue will det these torps, but they rarely turn away from their path...so a continuous stream of torps will also wear them down... Do not hesitate to turn toward them at warp 4 and dodge and evade while shooting torps at them... If you can plant enough torps to damage them slightly...coming in close will almost guarantee a mutual with a CA and sometimes a BB. WATCH YOUR FUEL... If you are clearly missing...don't keep firing torps. Remember, the DD's best asset is his fuel... Alot of BBs and CAs will try to get you to unload as much of your fuel as possible...before they hunt you down... A common tactic used by many BBs and CAs is to tractor a DD in and phasor him to death... One way that gives you a slim chance of avoiding death is to tractor him as well...the moment you are overhim....head in the opposite direction of the enemy ship while pressoring him. This surprise maneuver has saved me on some occaisions. But dont hesitate to butt-torp him if need be. :) If you are running and butt-torping and the BB or CA is tractoring you, you still might prevail... However, dont hold your breath. If I feel that escape is not evident, I try to slow down and tractor the CA or BB and unload my torps as well...this, unfortunately is NOT a guarantee mutual unless you can explode on the CA or BB after it has taken significant damage. Cloaking and speeding off in another direction is an option that allows for you to escape a tractor (if you aren't too damaged) and a small chance of escaping P-lock... But I've found this tactic to have a small success rate. If this situation occurs...the best tactic maybe for the DD to get whatever ship that is chasing it as far from the battle as possible and (by exploding on the enemy) crippling the ship. Remember when you cloak...you do not automatically disappear. You fade out of view... So the enemy can still see the shape of your ship and where it is heading for half-second. Use this to your advantage. A DD, with such sharp turns, should radically change directions once it is COMPLETELY out of sight. This is a great way to avoid being successfully ogged as well... ***Advanced Tactics?*** I personally believe that as DD pilots get better, the DD may be able to filll certain roles that previously were considered unheard of. For instance, we know how effective the SC has been in bombing and in army dropping. In fact, this tactic is a very popular trend in many INL teams. Yet, many will recall that ships like the SC and the BB were viewed by many as having no role or future at all just a few years ago. I firmly believe the DD will finally reach legitmacy soon. I can realistically see the DD undertaking three roles. Granted perhaps the way the DD is played now contributes to the large inability it has as a ship. But I think with careful development and maybe some encouragement of the use of the DD, we might see the following. Anti-Scout Warfare I have always believed that a good DD can beat a great SC player. It is faster than the CA and has greater maneuverability and fuel regen. As the Classics Battles SC vs DD indicated, good DD players can beat the SCs. If anything, a DD can harass an SC much more effectively if it is careful (i.e. not steaming at maxwarp into a stream of SC torps). Playing a rough zone-to-zone on the edges and then an aggressive man-to-man on the SC bomber can prove to be effective. And, should the DD obtain a kill, it can proceed as a carrier threat as well (which has already been established as a competent role for the DD). Medium Bomber/Ogger With some teams are actually trying 2 SCs as bombers against other teams, I would have to wonder the feasibility of perhaps having a full-time SC bomber deep in enemy space and a DD bomber/ogger in mid-enemy space that would lead all the back to the frontline. Granted the DD player would have to be very good...especially at running. But having the ability to cloak indefinitely (at warp 0) and reasonable speed, I feel the DD could help in the bombing while keying in on carriers and calling oggs for the SB. I believe that for this tactic to be successfully utilized, tandem ogging would have to be used...in which a frontline spacecontrol CA would try to chase an suspectiing carrier into a cloaked DD. Ideally, once the SC has established firm control over the bombing, the DD would be free to cloak and "watch" and assist where need be. The DD could act as a deep escort, a carrier harrasser, an ogger, and a diversion. And, should the SC need help, the DD can provide additional bombing and perhaps even help the SC bomb a planet by "escorting" the SC to a planet that needs to be bombed. Also should the DD have kills, it also has the option of going back and planet-taking as well. Granted, both roles would have to be done by DD pilots who KNOW how to play the DD like the back of their hand (I don't think I qualify). And the team would have to play with the notion of having two ships in enemy space fighting a bit more passively than the remaining 5 (excluding the SB). But I believe if the DD plays wisely, even in a passive role, it will be VERY useful. Well, this is my input... I welcome any criticisms and comments on my opinions. POLARIS Silvertree polaris@wam.umd.edu